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- Interview with Marwan Barghouti
by Jefferson
Fletcher
Marwan Barghouti, 41, is a member of the Palestinian Legislative
Council, the General Secretary of Fatah in
the West Bank, and the chief coordinator of Al-Aqsa Intifada.
Barghouthi joined Fatah at the age of 15 and
studied history and political science at Bir Zeit University, taking
a masters degree in international relations. He spent six
years in Israeli jails and was deported from his
homeland in 1987. His involvement with the
first Intifada was as a liaison officer in the PLO's offices in Amman
and Tunis. He returned in 1994 under the Oslo accords, as a
believer in the peace process. He is now
on Israel's most wanted list.
I sat down to talk with Mr. Barghouti last Tuesday, July 31, the
day after the assassination of six Fatah activists by the Israelis
in Nablus. Surrounded by bodyguards with
automatic rifles, Barghouti was very angry and
defiant about Israelis assassination policy. We discussed his views
on the peace process, the Intifada, Israels
planned invasion of the Palestinian territories,
and charges of incitement in the Palestinian media. The interview
was cut short by the news of the attack on Nablus (which
killed eight, including two children), when Barghouti received a
phone call warning him of two Apache
helicopters in the vicinity. Barghouti suggested that
I leave immediately for my own protection, so I did. The
Israelis didnt attack that day, but did attempt to assassinate Barghouti
three days later in a botched missile attack on
his convoy traveling in Ramallah.
____________________________
The Israelis claim that Yassir Arafat is
responsible for starting this Intifada last October after the failure of
the negotiations at Camp David. Is this
true?
The Israelis are crazy. First of all, do you really
think that Arafat gave the orders for this
Intifada to start? This Intifada didnt start by ordersand never
will stop by orders. It will stop when it achieves it demands, it
goals, which is to put an end to the Israeli occupation. Second,
these military activities (against the Occupation) are not
organized by Arafat.
Then can you tell me who is actually in command of
the Intifada? Who is coordinating the
resistance activities if you say Arafat isnt in fact
in command?
There is a committee which has representatives from all
the Palestinian political factions. We
have meetings every week in the central
committees in the West Bank and Gaza. There are also regional
committees in Jenin, Nablus, Rafah, Hebron, and
Jerusalem, etc. So whos in charge of the
central committee here in the West Bank? I am
in charge in the West Bank. Can you comment on
the riots this past Sunday in Jerusalem? The
Israelis claim that the Palestinian Authority provoked these riots
by calling upon Palestinians to defend Al-Aqsa.
Are these allegations correct? I think that
the Israelis are always responsible for these
provocations.
For example, take the provocation by the Temple Mount
Faithful with their plans to lay the cornerstone
of the third Jewish temple on the Haram-Al-Sharif compound. The
Israelis deliberately tried to disturb the
Muslims and the Arab world by their plans to build a third temple. I
think that it is a disaster that the Israelis allowed these Jewish
fanatics to disturb the stability in the region
with their provocative acts. Why do they
do these things? Why, for example, did Barak let Sharon visit the
Haram-Al-Sharif compound last September if he was really interested in
peace?
Are you interested in peace with the Israelis?
I do believe that I am one of the prominent people who
support the peace process, and somebody who
fights for the peace process. I support the dialogue with the
Israelis, whether it be with members of the Knesset or
the Israeli peace groups. The Oslo
agreement was supposed to lead to an end of the Israeli
occupation, and implementation of the accords was supposed to begin
in 1994. By 1997, the Palestinians were supposed
to control more than 80 to 90 percent of the
Occupied Territories, and the remaining 10 percent was supposed to be
negotiated during the final status talks. What happened was that the
Israelis never implemented their part of the agreements, and now the
Palestinians only have 18 percent of the Occupied Territories under
Palestinian control.
Do you believe Yassir Arafat was wrong then to sign
the Oslo Accords?
I do believe that Yassir Arafat did things that nobody in
the Arab world could do by signing this
agreement with the Israelis. Arafat signed a
very bad agreement, and he accepted all of the Israeli conditions
without any guarantees from the Israelis that
they would implement their side of the bargain.
He arrested hundreds from Hamas and Islamic Jihad and
succeeded in preventing any kind of suicide bomber or terrorist
activity against Israel during the last four
years before the Intifada. He made the Israelis
feel secure, and the settlers, and the occupation forces, but for
the Palestinian people, things just got worse.
So are you saying that the Oslo Accords were a mistake for the
Palestinians? The mistake was not with the
Oslo Accords, but the mistake was with these
crazy leaders in Israel--like Netanyahu and Barak--who didnt implement
the agreements. I believe that Oslo did open the door for
peace in the Middle East, but unfortunately, the
Israelis never implemented the agreements,
so there is no real agreement now. So
in your opinion, were there any mistakes made by the Palestinians in
the negotiations?
In the final status talks at
Camp David, Barak came and convinced the
Palestinians to put aside the interim agreements and go directly to the
final-status negotiations. I was opposed to the Camp David summit
because I insisted that the Israelis first implement the interim
agreements they had signed before we even
consider the final-status issues. I asked why
should we have to put aside these signed agreements when we had
them in our hands and go directly to the
final-status talks? And what did Israel suggest
at Camp David? First, to cancel the right of return for the
refugees, second, to maintain the majority of
the settlements, and third, to keep the occupation in Jerusalem. So
it was not possible to reach a settlement under
these conditions.
The Israelis allege that 97 percent of
the Palestinian population are currently under the control of the
Palestinian Authority. Former Israeli
Prime Minister Ehud Barak repeated this claim yesterday in an editorial
in the New York Times. Barak said, in effect, that the
Palestinians mostly rule themselves. Is this
true? This is
not true, not true. Tell me where 97 percent of the
Palestinian population are living under control of the Palestinian
Authority? They are not.
All of the villages, all of the refugee camps outside of PA are
under control of the Israeli
occupation. Jerusalem, its not under the Palestinian control.
You are talking about 200,000 in East Jerusalem
alone.
And all the villages in
Areas C and B are not under the PA control.
So this is not true.
Can you comment on the
death of the six Fatah activists yesterday in
Nablus. The Israeli Deputy Defense Minister claimed it was a work
accident. The
Israelis always make this allegation, trying to claim that it was a
work accidentteona avudah they say in Hebrew. They always
say this, but it is not true. They claim
that what happened three weeks ago in Tulkarem
was a work accident when they assassinated one of the Hamas activist.
In Nablus, when they
assassinated Osama Jayabna by the telephone, they also
said it was a work accident. Not long after that--about one
week ago--when Sharon came to the conference of
the Likud, he started to talk about his
achievements. He said, These people who attack us in Jenin, now
they are not alive--in Tulkarem, in Tamun, in
Nablus--and in Bethlehem. I heard him
personally say this in his speech on television. So he (Sharon)
confirmed that they assassinated all the people they denied killing
before this meeting. So I think that it is very clear that when the
spokesman of the Israeli army said that three of
these people were accused of putting a bomb
in Tel Aviv and that they are wanted, its obvious that they killed
them. But how did this happen, if there
were no military helicopters in the air at the
time, nor was there any tanks. So how did they do this?
The building was less than two kilometers from an Israeli military
base, and they used a remote control for the explosives.
So if there wasnt
explosives in the house, then where did they come
from? The Israelis claim the explosion cam from within the
house. From the Israelis. They planted
them there, and they used the remote control to explode the explosions.
So the explosives were planted by collaborators?
Yes, absolutely. They always recruit
collaborators to implement their crimes. So
the what does this mean for the future, because during the funeral
there were many calls for revenge, so what can we expect in the
future? I think that its not a personal or
family clash, so when we talk about revenge, its
not this sort of revenge. By revenge we mean to continue
the Intifada and to escalate the resistance against the Israeli
occupation. Why are they trying to assassinate these people? Because
they want to put an end to the Intifada and the
resistance by these assassinations of the activists. But we will
succeed, and we will not allow them to achieve their attempts if we
succeed in continuing the Intifada and resistance.
And this will continue,
absolutely. So this means you plan on
escalating the resistance?
Yes, of course. This means to
escalate the resistance. Does this mean just
demonstrations, or does this include violent acts?
Yes, of course. When we are talking about resistance, this
also includes armed resistance against the
Israeli occupation. This is very clear.
Armed resistance
against whom?
Against the occupation.
Does occupation mean against
settlers and soldiers?
Yes, of course.
Do you think that we have to recognize the occupation?
I think it is very clear what is the meaning of the occupation.
So civilians are
targets?
If they are part of the
occupation, yes. They are occupation, they are
occupiers.
What about ordinary Israeli civilians?
No, noeverybody in the West Bank and
Gazaincluding Jerusalem, because its an
occupied territorythey are occupation. They have to leave our
country. I dont like to see anybody who will be killed, if he is
Israeli or Palestinian, if he is soldier or civilian or any other.
But what we are fighting for is our
independence. If the Israelis tomorrow make a
decision for full withdrawal from the territories, we will
distribute flowers to the Israeli soldiers as
they withdraw from the occupied territories.
To the 1967 borders?
Yes, exactly. We are talking about the
1967 borders. We recognize Israel,
and we constantly repeat that. The question is not if we
recognize Israel, but if Israel recognizes us.
That is the question. We recognized Israel
10 years ago, and we dealt with this issue, and we didnt ignore this
issue. And our strategy at Fatah is to prevent any kind of activity
inside Israel. This is very clear.
So no activity inside Israel?
No, nowe havent done anything inside
of Israel. As I said before, in principle,
we oppose any kind of military activity inside Israel, but we
do believe any activity inside the Occupied Territories is legal.
One of the arguments currently underway among
the Palestinians is why should we refrain from
attacks against Tel Aviv when the Israelis dont respect Ramallah? The
people ask, If they dont respect the areas under Palestinian
sovereigntyarea Athen why should we have to respect their areas?
But as I have
said before, I am against military activities inside of Israel. But if
the Israelis invade the West Bank and Gaza, this will change.
So do you take the
Israeli threats to invade the Palestinian
territories and topple the Palestinian Authority seriously?
Yes of course we take this seriously.
The Israelis have already increased their forces
throughout the territories. They now have hundreds of
tanks around every major city in the West Bank and Gaza, so they
are serious.
But who will they make war
against? We havent any tanks, any aircraft, any
weaponswe have nothing. They say they will destroy our
infrastructure, but I ask, what infrastructure?
Everything we have comes from the Israelisour
roads, electricity, water and goods. So when they talk about
destroying infrastructure, they are really
talking about destroying buildings and killing innocent people. This
is what they can do. But this here is the
biggest difference between the Intifada and the Israeli army. The
IDFcan defeat an army, for they have the power and ability to defeat any
army in this region, but they cannot defeat the
Intifada. If they want to defeat the Intifada
that means they have to destroy four million Palestinians in
the Occupied Territories, and they cannot do this. They
cannot break the will of the Palestinian people
for their independence. If they came into Ramallah, do you really
think they would feel more secure? They were already here for more
than 26 years, and they left. Why would they want
to return? What do you think will happen? It would be a
disaster for the Israelis to invade the territories. If there is
already a large number of people willing to
carry out suicide bombings inside of Israel, dont you
think that number would sky-rocket with an invasion? If they
invade usin our houses and landthey will pay
the price. For if someone invades your
home, you dont care what you do to drive them out.
How does Fatah feel about the US plan
to send more CIA personal to take part of the
observer force recommended by the G8? Does Fatah support or
reject the placement of CIA personal to observe the cease-fire
between the two sides?
No, absolutely not.
Why not?
Because they are the same if they are
Israelis or the CIA, they are the same, there is
no difference.
Then what would be acceptable to the Palestinians?
What we are asking for from the international
community is an international force
for protection. We ask for an international force to be sent to
the Occupied Territories to protect the Palestinian people from
these aggressive Israeli attacks and to observe
the full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank
and Gaza. We are not talking about just observers. We had 20
to 30 observers already come from America, and
all they did was register the names of the
Palestinian victims. I think the media did this job better than
the observers, so we dont need just that. What the
Palestinians are asking is for the international
community to send international forces to protect
the Palestinian people and to observe the full Israeli withdrawal
from the Occupied Territories because any solution which will not lead to
an end of the
Israeli occupation will not work on the ground.
So besides an international force, what
else would be necessary for the Palestinians to
return to the negotiating table?
Its very clear that we are not against the
negotiations since the first day, but it is not
logical to ask the Palestinians to stop the Intifada
to return back to the negotiations. I think that we must
continue the Intifada and the resistance on the
ground if the negotiations are to succeed. For it has been our experience
that we cannot trust the Israelis. Since the
Madrid conference till now--almost 10 yearswe were going to the
negotiating table, thousands of meetings, not
hundreds believe me but thousands of meetings on
a lot of issues like political, economics, security, etc. And what
happened while were negotiating? The Israelis used the
timeused the umbrella of the negotiations to
build new settlements. Israel since the 1967 war to
1993 built roughly 25,000 housing units during the 26 years of
Israeli occupation. Since 1993 until the eve of the Intifada--in a
period of seven years--they built 23, 400 new
housing units. So I think the Israelis
laugh at the Palestinians and use the negotiations to advance their own
goals. So I think it would be a disaster for the
Palestinians to end the Intifada as a condition
for returning to the negotiating table. The best and shortest
way to stop the Intifada will be Israels full withdrawal from the
Occupied Territorieslike what happened in Lebanon.
So do you support the recommendations
of the Mitchell Report or not?
The question is not whether I support the
Mitchell Report or not. Of course, I
hope they will implement the report, but the Israelis have
never implemented anything they have agreed to implement.
Never, for instance, like the Sharm-Al-Shiekh
understanding, or the Egyptian or Jordanian initiatives, or the Tenet
cease-fire proposal. And now consider the G8 declaration to send
observers to the Occupied Territories. They
destroyed the idea when they insisted upon American and CIA
observers, for they are already here. They
are working here. So this will not solve the
problem. We have a consensus among the Palestinian political
factionsincluding Hamas and Islamic Jihadof
one goal for the Palestinians. And that goal is an
end to the Israeli occupation.
Do you believe there is any chance of a
return to negotiations with the present
government in Israel?
To be honest and frank with you, I dont
think there is any chance, any room or any
opportunity for any agreement with Sharon. So we will opt
for more escalation of the Intifada in the coming weeks.
Several prominent Jewish organizations
in America, as well as the editorial boards of
the New York Times and the Washington Post, have accused the Palestinian
Authority of inciting hatred toward Israel in its official media.
They also accuse the Palestinian Authority of teaching hatred
toward Israelis in Palestinian textbooks. Is the Palestinian
Authority guilty of incitement
toward Israel?
This is not true. To begin with, we have initiated several people
to people programs with the Israelis, but the problem is that the Israelis
regard it as a people under people program. We have initiated the
dialogue, the negotiations, the joint projects between the youth,
the women, the journalists, and the intellectuals. Yet what did the
Israelis do? Last December, they killed
Dr. Thabet Thabet, a colleague of mine and a peace
activist inTulkarem. Dr. Thabet personally hosted more than
25 Israeli delegations in his home and office, and yet the Israelis killed
him. They said he was a terrorist, and now they say I am at the top of the
terrorists. And they accuse the Palestinians of incitement?
Dont you think the occupation is the biggest incitement of all? The
greatest incitement in the world is the
occupation itself. If you have an occupation, you dont
need to incite the people, for they are already angry. If you
have 96 military checkpoints in the Palestinian
territories, or bulldoze thousands of olive
trees, or kill more than 500 Palestinians and injure and maim thousands
more, you dont need incitement. If you bomb our cities and towns,
destroy hundreds of buildings and assassinate more than 60
individuals, you dont need incitement (Pounding
his fists on the table at this point). Do you
really think that we need to incite anybody? The main
incitement is the occupation itself!
Do you think the Arab nations have done
enough to help the Palestinians during the
current Intifada? Have they done enough, or do you think
they could do more to help the Palestinians?
Of course they can do more, and they have
to. What kinds of assistance are we talking
aboutI mean, what would be most beneficial?
They can give all kinds of assistance. I think the Arabs
have to stop playing the role of observers and do more than just show in
their media how many Palestinians are victims.
I think they have to take real measures on the
ground to help the Palestinians. They should insist to the Israelis
that they stop their aggressive attacks and to implement the UN
resolutions.
At the very least, they should
close the Israeli embassies in Cairo and Amman
and to stop the normalization of ties with Israel. They must cut
any kinds of relations with Israel, whether its political,
economic or security cooperation. The
Israeli government has to feel that they are
completely isolated in this part of the worldand not just by the
Arabsbut also by Europe and everybody else.
So we are looking for support by the Arabs, and
they can start this by cutting their relations with the Americans.
Why should they cut their ties with the
Americans?
Because I think our problem is not with the Israelis, but our biggest
problem is with the Americanswith you, unfortunately. Do you
realize that the Palestinians have more support
in the Israeli Knesset than we do in the US
Congress? The number of the people who support the creation of a
Palestinian state in the Israeli Knesset is more than 50 members out of
120. In the US Senate, I cant even think of two out of a hundred
members who support the creation of a
Palestinian state. So our problem is really
with the US Congress, not the Israelis.
What would you say to the American people
if you had the chance?
The Palestinians are asking
themselvesincluding mewhy do the Americans
treat us so badly? Why do they always support the Israelis more than
even the Israelis themselves? Why are they always accusing
the Palestinians of being violent terrorists
while ignoring Israels brutal occupation? The
occupation is the greatest terror of all and the greatest violence
in this part of the world. Why are they so
aggressive in their policies toward the
Palestinians? Why do they ignore the Palestinian national rights?
For 20 years the Americans insisted that the PLO
accept Israels right to exist as well as UN
Resolutions 242 and 338, and we did that. Now the Americans
ask the Palestinians to make
compromises on these resolutions and to accept
the Israeli conditions for peace. I think the Americans should look
for their long-term interests in the region and
realize that they have many interests greater
than Israel. They cannot continue to ignore the Arab nation of
more than 300 million people as well as a billion Muslims all over
the world for the sake of these 4 million Jews
in Israel. Its time for the Americans to
start being fair in their policies toward the Palestinians. Mr. Jefferson Fletcher
is a student at University of Arkansas in King Fahd Middle East Studies
Program. He has traveled to Middle East.
Source:
by courtesy & 2001 Jefferson Fletcher
by the same authror:
Clinton's
Middle East Failure
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